Is thirteen keywords too many on a page?

jfranktoo · 06-20-2007, 09:59 PM

The index page in our new site is written in natural language for the site visitor.

But overall, I've got thirteen keywords or two-keyword phrases, in a 350 word text. Do you think this is too many?

They are not all in the headlines or body text, many of them are alt tags for the 8 little thumbnail photos I'm using.

Obviously the 6 or 7 top words/phrases are more dense than the minor keywords.

How do you feel about this? Does it matter?

John

NavyCS · 06-20-2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfranktoo

The index page in our new site is written in natural language for the site visitor.

But overall, I've got thirteen keywords or two-keyword phrases, in a 350 word text. Do you think this is too many?

They are not all in the headlines or body text, many of them are alt tags for the 8 little thumbnail photos I'm using.

Obviously the 6 or 7 top words/phrases are more dense than the minor keywords.

How do you feel about this? Does it matter?

John

Can I see the page?

jfranktoo · 06-21-2007, 06:26 AM

Hi, Navy it is good of you to reply and to offer to look at the page. It is not up and running yet, I'd have to send the preview page by e-mail. Shall I do that? I would appreciatge it, though.
John
john@thewinklers.co.uk if you like and I'll reply. Mark subject "New Cottage site" otherwise it might get pushed into the spam filter by mistake.

Bagi Zoltán · 06-21-2007, 07:07 AM

I think meta keywords can be effective help in nice rankings concerning only Yahoo! and msn search engines. Please take attention on the content relvancy, so don't place an expression into the meta KW tag unless it occures in the content.

Answering your main question i would say that 6-8 KWs may be more effective.

jfranktoo · 06-21-2007, 07:57 AM

These are not Metatags, Bagi. They are the phrases and words I'm using in the text to optimise the site for my target audience.

John

Bagi Zoltán · 06-21-2007, 08:04 AM

I'm so sorry John it looks i misunderstood the thread

I need to correct my answer. I think the limit of the keywords you can optimize a single webpage can be determined by your link building skill and the number of the indexed competetive pages. My main principle is try and error

jethrotul · 06-21-2007, 08:54 AM

I just tend to believe the best is about 8-10 keywords with 4-5 repetition of each word on the page.

Alan · 06-21-2007, 08:58 AM

If I understand you correctly, you are basically asking here about keyword density. This refers to the ratio (or percentage) of keywords contained within the total number of indexable words within a web page.

Each search engine has it's own preferred keyword density ratio. I normally look for a a keyord density of between 2 and 8%. If you have 350 indexable words, with a keyword repeated 13 times this would give you a percentage of 3.7%, which I would deem to be acceptable.

For the number of keywords in meta tags per page, I have recently been researching some of this, and there is no absolute answer, different professional have different views. Google doesn't use the keywords mete tag, other search engines do. The best method here is to add keywords that represent your content, are included in your content. Concensus from the articles I've been reading suggests somewhere between 10 and 20 keywords is accepatble, putting the preferred keyword at the beginning of the list.

OldWelshGuy · 06-21-2007, 11:26 AM

Running with Alans take (re density, which was how I read it as well), I would say that if ALL that is there are the keywords without synonyms or semantic words then it might be seen as cramming.

Unfortunately though I am thinking that you are saying that you are optimising for 13 words over 2 phrases, is that right? if Yes then I would suggest the page be split. mail it over to me to see, or stick it on a server and mail me the link.

Either way, I think the original statements and questions need to be made more clear

jfranktoo · 06-21-2007, 04:40 PM

Thanks folks. The page is in preparation so I can alter it. I want to optimise this site for off season self catering holidays. Any mug can sell the high season - it is selling the other 26 weeks a year which I'm after, when there is no one around. No market, very thin demand, a great deal of competition. (But not web based specific competition) We did 42 weeks last year, but it is getting harder. The web site is all we do.

For the summer bookings, people ask for "Glencoe" and they find us. For off season bookings people ask for "Scotland" and they don't.

If I go for the highest keyword phrase Self catering holidays Scotland, the first ten pages will be taken up by directories. No chance

I've already got a main site which is page one for minor keywords, "lochside cottage" is one and "glencoe" is another, and I'm not doing badly for "cottage" either which is a strong keyword (but not page one)

I've identifed some market segments - last minute/short breaks/late availability, plus Fort William, plus Tourist news Scotland, plus Scottish weather, where the number of competitive sites optimised for these phrases are relatively few in number. (I've got to add "self catering holiday cottage" and "Scotland" as well, obviously.)

I've got them built into the first page, top line, title etc, and added Edinburgh, Glasgow,Inverness, etc. I intend to do at least one page in the site for each of these market segments each of which is searched for.

I can build inbound links to each of these pages from three relevant blogs, forums, and articles plus a couple of directories and other holiday home sites in Scotland. Easy peasey this.

So there are not 13 repetitions of the same word (there may be - cottage - is too high at present) I'm not asking about keyword density, Old Welsh has put me right about that already.

Summary
I've got seven or more different minor market segments to reach. I want to index the main page with each of these words/phrases, do an internal page for each, and then optimise each internal page suitably. It is all perfectly natural and straightforward. But the content strategy is not the same as that of other sites. If you just do the same as everyone else you'll end up average, and who wants on his tombstone the phrase "This was an average man"

The site visitors, I know from experience want three things; cottage details, availability and price - nothing else. So I want to draw in their interest in these sections and hopefully pick up some prospects.

You are a wonderful bunch. I try to ask questions which draw out the best and which will help others too. Is this post too long?

John

NavyCS · 06-21-2007, 04:52 PM

The site webstore.ansi.org ranks on the first page for Google and MSN and number 28 in Yahoo for the term web store. Interestingly enough, besides the title of the subdomain, there is NOT ONE single instance of the term web store on the entire page. Keyword density was sooo 2 years ago. Where on page optimization is important - strive to make it customer/visitor friendly and not stuff it with words and phrases, write your content in a logical manner using the phrases you have chosen of course because you will enhance it with the most important thing in SEO - the OFF PAGE stuff. Anchor text using combinations of your keywords/phrases from relevant pages is the most powerfull vote of confidence your phrases/pages can have - as you can see by the example in the site I provided.

Google alone updates/tweeks their algo all the time, not just during an "update". The things that were important 2 years ago may not even be a glimmer today. I suggest SEO is a science, you practice SEO/M. To stay relevant you must read and research everyday!

OldWelshGuy · 06-21-2007, 04:56 PM

To echo what NavyCS just said, Gaoogle have admitted that they have up to 10 changes to their algorithm PER DAY! They might be minute changes and tweaks that don't really affect (directly) ranking, but there is up to and sometimes OVER 10 per day!

NavyCS · 06-21-2007, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

For the number of keywords in meta tags per page, I have recently been researching some of this, and there is no absolute answer, different professional have different views. Google doesn't use the keywords mete tag, other search engines do. The best method here is to add keywords that represent your content, are included in your content. Concensus from the articles I've been reading suggests somewhere between 10 and 20 keywords is accepatble, putting the preferred keyword at the beginning of the list.

Yahoo is the only search engine that adds the content of the keyword meta to the content on your page, Google nor MSN register the data when determining SERPS, Yahoo, as I said only sees it as content, if the term/words are already on the page there is no reason to repeat it - use the meta keyword, if you must, to place common misspellings and other english spellings ie jewelery (American)/jewellery (English).

charlesgan · 06-21-2007, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfranktoo

The index page in our new site is written in natural language for the site visitor.

But overall, I've got thirteen keywords or two-keyword phrases, in a 350 word text. Do you think this is too many?

They are not all in the headlines or body text, many of them are alt tags for the 8 little thumbnail photos I'm using.

Obviously the 6 or 7 top words/phrases are more dense than the minor keywords.

How do you feel about this? Does it matter?

John

percentage doesnt matter for me.
just keep the writting natural and site is designed for user. not for bot

Chart Music · 06-22-2007, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charlesgan

percentage doesnt matter for me.
just keep the writting natural and site is designed for user. not for bot

Taken to extremes with that, you can have a beautiful interactive flash site, great for your users, but not used much as no visitors from search engines.

06-20-2007, 09:59 PM	#1
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? The index page in our new site is written in natural language for the site visitor. But overall, I've got thirteen keywords or two-keyword phrases, in a 350 word text. Do you think this is too many? They are not all in the headlines or body text, many of them are alt tags for the 8 little thumbnail photos I'm using. Obviously the 6 or 7 top words/phrases are more dense than the minor keywords. How do you feel about this? Does it matter? John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland Last edited 06-20-2007 at 09:59 PM. Reason: clarity

06-21-2007, 06:26 AM	#3
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? Hi, Navy it is good of you to reply and to offer to look at the page. It is not up and running yet, I'd have to send the preview page by e-mail. Shall I do that? I would appreciatge it, though. John john@thewinklers.co.uk if you like and I'll reply. Mark subject "New Cottage site" otherwise it might get pushed into the spam filter by mistake. __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-21-2007, 07:07 AM	#4
Bagi Zoltán iWEBTOOL Moderator Contributor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 1,855	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? I think meta keywords can be effective help in nice rankings concerning only Yahoo! and msn search engines. Please take attention on the content relvancy, so don't place an expression into the meta KW tag unless it occures in the content. Answering your main question i would say that 6-8 KWs may be more effective. __________________ █ Time may come when you will need an excellent eCommerce shopping cart software █ free seo related web directory mérlegek Free shopping cart

06-21-2007, 07:57 AM	#5
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? These are not Metatags, Bagi. They are the phrases and words I'm using in the text to optimise the site for my target audience. John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-21-2007, 08:04 AM	#6
Bagi Zoltán iWEBTOOL Moderator Contributor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 1,855	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? I'm so sorry John it looks i misunderstood the thread I need to correct my answer. I think the limit of the keywords you can optimize a single webpage can be determined by your link building skill and the number of the indexed competetive pages. My main principle is try and error __________________ █ Time may come when you will need an excellent eCommerce shopping cart software █ free seo related web directory mérlegek Free shopping cart

06-21-2007, 08:54 AM	#7
jethrotul Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 165	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? I just tend to believe the best is about 8-10 keywords with 4-5 repetition of each word on the page.

06-21-2007, 08:58 AM	#8
Alan iWEBTOOL Moderator Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ayr, Scotland Posts: 904	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? If I understand you correctly, you are basically asking here about keyword density. This refers to the ratio (or percentage) of keywords contained within the total number of indexable words within a web page. Each search engine has it's own preferred keyword density ratio. I normally look for a a keyord density of between 2 and 8%. If you have 350 indexable words, with a keyword repeated 13 times this would give you a percentage of 3.7%, which I would deem to be acceptable. For the number of keywords in meta tags per page, I have recently been researching some of this, and there is no absolute answer, different professional have different views. Google doesn't use the keywords mete tag, other search engines do. The best method here is to add keywords that represent your content, are included in your content. Concensus from the articles I've been reading suggests somewhere between 10 and 20 keywords is accepatble, putting the preferred keyword at the beginning of the list. __________________ ahb Solutions Consultancy and Web Development Seen a good post - Give some reputation click on the

06-21-2007, 11:26 AM	#9
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? Running with Alans take (re density, which was how I read it as well), I would say that if ALL that is there are the keywords without synonyms or semantic words then it might be seen as cramming. Unfortunately though I am thinking that you are saying that you are optimising for 13 words over 2 phrases, is that right? if Yes then I would suggest the page be split. mail it over to me to see, or stick it on a server and mail me the link. Either way, I think the original statements and questions need to be made more clear __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

06-21-2007, 04:40 PM	#10
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? Thanks folks. The page is in preparation so I can alter it. I want to optimise this site for off season self catering holidays. Any mug can sell the high season - it is selling the other 26 weeks a year which I'm after, when there is no one around. No market, very thin demand, a great deal of competition. (But not web based specific competition) We did 42 weeks last year, but it is getting harder. The web site is all we do. For the summer bookings, people ask for "Glencoe" and they find us. For off season bookings people ask for "Scotland" and they don't. If I go for the highest keyword phrase Self catering holidays Scotland, the first ten pages will be taken up by directories. No chance I've already got a main site which is page one for minor keywords, "lochside cottage" is one and "glencoe" is another, and I'm not doing badly for "cottage" either which is a strong keyword (but not page one) I've identifed some market segments - last minute/short breaks/late availability, plus Fort William, plus Tourist news Scotland, plus Scottish weather, where the number of competitive sites optimised for these phrases are relatively few in number. (I've got to add "self catering holiday cottage" and "Scotland" as well, obviously.) I've got them built into the first page, top line, title etc, and added Edinburgh, Glasgow,Inverness, etc. I intend to do at least one page in the site for each of these market segments each of which is searched for. I can build inbound links to each of these pages from three relevant blogs, forums, and articles plus a couple of directories and other holiday home sites in Scotland. Easy peasey this. So there are not 13 repetitions of the same word (there may be - cottage - is too high at present) I'm not asking about keyword density, Old Welsh has put me right about that already. Summary I've got seven or more different minor market segments to reach. I want to index the main page with each of these words/phrases, do an internal page for each, and then optimise each internal page suitably. It is all perfectly natural and straightforward. But the content strategy is not the same as that of other sites. If you just do the same as everyone else you'll end up average, and who wants on his tombstone the phrase "This was an average man" The site visitors, I know from experience want three things; cottage details, availability and price - nothing else. So I want to draw in their interest in these sections and hopefully pick up some prospects. You are a wonderful bunch. I try to ask questions which draw out the best and which will help others too. Is this post too long? John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-21-2007, 04:52 PM	#11
NavyCS iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 242	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? The site webstore.ansi.org ranks on the first page for Google and MSN and number 28 in Yahoo for the term web store. Interestingly enough, besides the title of the subdomain, there is NOT ONE single instance of the term web store on the entire page. Keyword density was sooo 2 years ago. Where on page optimization is important - strive to make it customer/visitor friendly and not stuff it with words and phrases, write your content in a logical manner using the phrases you have chosen of course because you will enhance it with the most important thing in SEO - the OFF PAGE stuff. Anchor text using combinations of your keywords/phrases from relevant pages is the most powerfull vote of confidence your phrases/pages can have - as you can see by the example in the site I provided. Google alone updates/tweeks their algo all the time, not just during an "update". The things that were important 2 years ago may not even be a glimmer today. I suggest SEO is a science, you practice SEO/M. To stay relevant you must read and research everyday! __________________ Memphis Website Design Military Benefits

06-21-2007, 04:56 PM	#12
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Is thirteen keywords too many on a page? To echo what NavyCS just said, Gaoogle have admitted that they have up to 10 changes to their algorithm PER DAY! They might be minute changes and tweaks that don't really affect (directly) ranking, but there is up to and sometimes OVER 10 per day! __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

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