Keyword density

jfranktoo · 06-08-2007, 10:48 PM

My assumption is that ideal keyword density is between 3% and 9% of total text on a page. Is that right guys and gals? I trust you all absolutely, remember.

For a moment please forget my audience - I know I've got to write for them first and Google later. It really is not going to be helpful to tell me to write for my audience, I will, I promise. At the moment the only issue on my mind is keyword density.

But I've got 4 main keywords for my new site's index page. At 9% density, if I get them into the headers and text, that is using up 36% of the total word count. That's a lot, it means that every third word is a keyword. 3% works better, obviously, it looks less like garbage.

Here is the question,
Provided that I can make the writing work for the audience, is 9% density better than 3%? Or would Lady Google prefer a happy medium, say 6%?

Between keyword density and seo success is the relationship linear, or is there a curve or a flat line? If it is a flat line then I'll just go for 3%

This assumes that all other factors are equal such as using bold face, and headings for keywords.

Thanks boys and girls. I try to raise questions which I hope will be interesting to others.

John

Bagi Zoltán · 06-09-2007, 06:36 AM

John, if you aim Yahoo! then you need to deal with keyword density, otherwise i don't suggest you to do so. If you have an expressive and descriptive title tag for every inner page and home page as well containing the most important keywords, you won't be able to avoid to write those keywords into the natural content, without consider how many times do they occure and what is the keyword density. If you aim the biggest SE the google you have to deal mostly with the inlinks, the title tag and the title tag content agreement. Of course for structuring the content it's advised to use keyword rich headings, but i don't think that you need to take extra attention on KD.

jfranktoo · 06-10-2007, 08:54 PM

Bagi, honestly I'd really like one of you experts to give a view on this question of keyword density specifically. I'm grateful to you for taking the trouble, though, thanks.

You seem to be saying that keyword density does not matter at all for Google and that keywords only matter in headlines.

But that is not the impression I get from others. Here is what Google's own seo tool offers.

"Enter the domain or URL of your website to see which are the words
and phrases it uses most, and see a detailed report on their numbers and density"

I know KD is a well tried and tested subject and you experts are probably fed up with it. I tried to search for it on this forum before posting but could not find it.

John

Steve Myers · 06-10-2007, 10:53 PM

So basically in your view jfranktoo, you're looking for the keywords that will enhance your visibility to the Google Engine. Each keyword is found by the terms used in each search made by each individual, if the keyword you use in your topic is a DAILY use of term, then that topic FROM your page will be brought to the attention of the Google Searches done daily.

Same as for the keywords in your posts, or keywords in your meta tags, it's a daily use for people to use high qualified keywords that will bring the best search results. Now given Google is a pain, but the density is at the most a higher percentage than you realize

If a tool asks you for your keywords, use the ones that describe your site "The Most" and then follow with original keywords that you would use every day.

SEO tools are all algorithm in Googles eyes and are always calculated differently in every feed it does when you hit that submit button to get your results. Best keywords are the daily ones.

I hope this is what you're looking for, if not, let us know

jfranktoo · 06-11-2007, 08:03 AM

Hi, Steve, thanks for the reply. I do know what keywords are about. It is the density issue, only.

Thanks anyway.

John

Steve Myers · 06-11-2007, 06:35 PM

jfranktoo, take a look here: http://www.rankquest.com/seo-tools.html

OldWelshGuy · 06-11-2007, 09:29 PM

Density really doesn't matter much at all DIRECTLY FOR RANKING. I ahve got pages ranking with 100% density . yep that's right keyphrase only. I have got pages ranking for TOTALLY different keyphrases than those on the page. So trust me when I say 'density is not an issue UNLESS you overdo it

If you stuff the keywords in every spare place you can then it can hurt you.

The answer is to be sensible about it. Search engines are moving towards semantics, and with semantics, the actual keyword you rank for might not even be on the page I.E.

A golf swing page might talk about hook, swing, slice, pitch angle, green fariway, driver ball, par and many other words that are semantically linked for golf. The use of these NATURAL LANGUAGE words will push the relevance of the page for its natural phrases.

Honestly the days of SEO by numbers went a while back, now it is rapidly getting to the stage where if you do not understand where the search engines are going, you are going to be left behind.

BUT if you want an anser then carry on looking. Oh, one thing though, ask the 'experts' who are advising you to show you some of their successes with SEO. (I will be happy to show you some of mine via PM). or you can look at www.umbrella-consultancy.co.uk and test it for 'internet marketing consultancy' it has a density of under 2% but kinda does ok for the phrase http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=int...L_enGB220GB220

Can I suggest that you ask different questions if you are looking to get your site ranking, because density and other such %'es are things that joking SEO's spout out to make themselves look expert

jfranktoo · 06-12-2007, 06:28 AM

OldWelshGuy, once again without doubt yours is the clearest answer. Okey dokey, I now know exaclty what to do with my new site where keywords are concerned. I've got to use natural phrases.

You reproved me for asking a question, but it has had the effect of flushing out an answer that might be helpful to many. I break up my questions item by item because forums have taught me that if you ask general questions you tend to get a lot of waffle.

Can I point out your use of the simile of the golf swing is very helpful in understanding the meaning of what is being said. I commend it to others.

Thanks.

John
ps the site quoted in the previous post from Steve is very helpful. The articles are neat. Still think, Steve, we need a few of these in the site. Well, you did ask us for views. Just quick, short ones. Get Old Welsh to get cross about keywords (or other "experts") for a start.

OldWelshGuy · 06-12-2007, 02:43 PM

LOL, Thanks for the compliment. I apologise if it appeared I was being critical of your asking questions, that CERTAINLY is not what I intended

Questioning is how we ALL learn. Your methodology of breaking down things into specific questions is 100% spot on. If you asked 'how can I get my site to rank'? I would have ignored the post as it is FAR to broad .

jfranktoo · 06-12-2007, 09:47 PM

No, no, its me with my old habit of not leaving things for an hour before responding.

Seriously, Old Welsh, you have a major effect on what people do - you might not know it. For example, I'm trying to set up a new site with a broad search term to compete with travel directories. Its hard and I think I may have to moderate my aim, but I'm not giving up yet. I can easily get to number one for my narrow keywords but I'd like to take on the whole of "Scotland" as a main keyword.

Because of your post I've started on something which is feeding my compulsive obsessive disorder. Its lovely.

I've spent the whole afteroon analysing the top ten competitive sites for this main search term, looking at the way they structure their keywords , going through each one carefully for backlinks and where they come from, density, word count, alexa ranking (don't go on, its the only traffic tool I've got, I know, I know, perhaps I shouldn't have told you that). It is a totally fascinating study, to me anyway - every site is totally different from every other site on almost every aspect. I suspect that when I Google the search terms to-morrow the order is going to change as well.

I've even found a mirror site in the top ten. About the only thing the sites share in common is that they have all been around for a long time and all are very deep in content, many pages, and their pages keep changing. One of them, by a rough and ready calculation gets 3,000 visitors or more a day going through to their clients' web sites. That is some heavyweight result.

But Lady Google remains a puzzle. She must be one flirtatious cow. I think she might be on something.

Next I'm going to do page ten and see the differences. I might summarise the results, on the forum perhaps, if anyone would be interested.

Thanks Old Welsh. It does seem discourteous calling you that. Can't you be Welsh Prop Forward or something?

John

OldWelshGuy · 06-12-2007, 11:33 PM

PROP FORWARD. I am a back I will have you know. If you doubt this then come down to London Irish' ground at Reading abbey on July 21'st where we will be playing in the Annual Fat Boy 7's charity tournament http://www.fartfairy.org.uk/fb2007.html we are in pool D (Scum V, my rugby forum team)

here is the best way to check for competition though.

intitle:
inanchor:
intext:
add your keywords.

THEN compare the top sites to see where they appear in those lists. THAT is top secret stuff though so I am not going any farther than this LOL.

WELL I could tell you, but I would have to k*** you, and I don't fel like k****** anyone at this stage

charlesgan · 06-13-2007, 03:24 AM

i dont count them actually... just make the content natural and keep adding new content every week. it does helps

Steve Myers · 06-13-2007, 03:30 AM

VERY true and good point.. I spoke with a partner of mine from web-optimize.com and we had a discussion over the phone about this earlier today about keyword density and we talk about why people are so soaked about it.

He told me "If you just add new content and keep popular links in the content you write about, then Google will favor that site because of how much you update it." If you do this almost EVERYDAY then you will get favored by Google.

Just a tip and great input charles!

OldWelshGuy · 06-13-2007, 04:18 PM

No new content on my site, still ranks though LOL

OK someone slap me with a kipper!

Steve Myers · 06-13-2007, 04:21 PM

**Slaps WG with a Kipper* (Really Hard) lol

06-08-2007, 10:48 PM	#1
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Keyword density My assumption is that ideal keyword density is between 3% and 9% of total text on a page. Is that right guys and gals? I trust you all absolutely, remember. For a moment please forget my audience - I know I've got to write for them first and Google later. It really is not going to be helpful to tell me to write for my audience, I will, I promise. At the moment the only issue on my mind is keyword density. But I've got 4 main keywords for my new site's index page. At 9% density, if I get them into the headers and text, that is using up 36% of the total word count. That's a lot, it means that every third word is a keyword. 3% works better, obviously, it looks less like garbage. Here is the question, Provided that I can make the writing work for the audience, is 9% density better than 3%? Or would Lady Google prefer a happy medium, say 6%? Between keyword density and seo success is the relationship linear, or is there a curve or a flat line? If it is a flat line then I'll just go for 3% This assumes that all other factors are equal such as using bold face, and headings for keywords. Thanks boys and girls. I try to raise questions which I hope will be interesting to others. John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-09-2007, 06:36 AM	#2
Bagi Zoltán iWEBTOOL Moderator Contributor Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Hungary Posts: 1,859	Re: Keyword density John, if you aim Yahoo! then you need to deal with keyword density, otherwise i don't suggest you to do so. If you have an expressive and descriptive title tag for every inner page and home page as well containing the most important keywords, you won't be able to avoid to write those keywords into the natural content, without consider how many times do they occure and what is the keyword density. If you aim the biggest SE the google you have to deal mostly with the inlinks, the title tag and the title tag content agreement. Of course for structuring the content it's advised to use keyword rich headings, but i don't think that you need to take extra attention on KD. __________________ █ Time may come when you will need an excellent eCommerce shopping cart software █ free seo related web directory precíziós mérleg Free shopping cart

06-10-2007, 08:54 PM	#3
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Keyword density Bagi, honestly I'd really like one of you experts to give a view on this question of keyword density specifically. I'm grateful to you for taking the trouble, though, thanks. You seem to be saying that keyword density does not matter at all for Google and that keywords only matter in headlines. But that is not the impression I get from others. Here is what Google's own seo tool offers. "Enter the domain or URL of your website to see which are the words and phrases it uses most, and see a detailed report on their numbers and density" I know KD is a well tried and tested subject and you experts are probably fed up with it. I tried to search for it on this forum before posting but could not find it. John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-10-2007, 10:53 PM	#4
Steve Myers Junior Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 544	Re: Keyword density So basically in your view jfranktoo, you're looking for the keywords that will enhance your visibility to the Google Engine. Each keyword is found by the terms used in each search made by each individual, if the keyword you use in your topic is a DAILY use of term, then that topic FROM your page will be brought to the attention of the Google Searches done daily. Same as for the keywords in your posts, or keywords in your meta tags, it's a daily use for people to use high qualified keywords that will bring the best search results. Now given Google is a pain, but the density is at the most a higher percentage than you realize If a tool asks you for your keywords, use the ones that describe your site "The Most" and then follow with original keywords that you would use every day. SEO tools are all algorithm in Googles eyes and are always calculated differently in every feed it does when you hit that submit button to get your results. Best keywords are the daily ones. I hope this is what you're looking for, if not, let us know

06-11-2007, 08:03 AM	#5
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Keyword density Hi, Steve, thanks for the reply. I do know what keywords are about. It is the density issue, only. Thanks anyway. John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-11-2007, 06:35 PM	#6
Steve Myers Junior Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 544	Re: Keyword density jfranktoo, take a look here: http://www.rankquest.com/seo-tools.html

06-11-2007, 09:29 PM	#7
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Keyword density Density really doesn't matter much at all DIRECTLY FOR RANKING. I ahve got pages ranking with 100% density . yep that's right keyphrase only. I have got pages ranking for TOTALLY different keyphrases than those on the page. So trust me when I say 'density is not an issue UNLESS you overdo it If you stuff the keywords in every spare place you can then it can hurt you. The answer is to be sensible about it. Search engines are moving towards semantics, and with semantics, the actual keyword you rank for might not even be on the page I.E. A golf swing page might talk about hook, swing, slice, pitch angle, green fariway, driver ball, par and many other words that are semantically linked for golf. The use of these NATURAL LANGUAGE words will push the relevance of the page for its natural phrases. Honestly the days of SEO by numbers went a while back, now it is rapidly getting to the stage where if you do not understand where the search engines are going, you are going to be left behind. BUT if you want an anser then carry on looking. Oh, one thing though, ask the 'experts' who are advising you to show you some of their successes with SEO. (I will be happy to show you some of mine via PM). or you can look at www.umbrella-consultancy.co.uk and test it for 'internet marketing consultancy' it has a density of under 2% but kinda does ok for the phrase http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=int...L_enGB220GB220 Can I suggest that you ask different questions if you are looking to get your site ranking, because density and other such %'es are things that joking SEO's spout out to make themselves look expert __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

06-12-2007, 06:28 AM	#8
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Keyword density OldWelshGuy, once again without doubt yours is the clearest answer. Okey dokey, I now know exaclty what to do with my new site where keywords are concerned. I've got to use natural phrases. You reproved me for asking a question, but it has had the effect of flushing out an answer that might be helpful to many. I break up my questions item by item because forums have taught me that if you ask general questions you tend to get a lot of waffle. Can I point out your use of the simile of the golf swing is very helpful in understanding the meaning of what is being said. I commend it to others. Thanks. John ps the site quoted in the previous post from Steve is very helpful. The articles are neat. Still think, Steve, we need a few of these in the site. Well, you did ask us for views. Just quick, short ones. Get Old Welsh to get cross about keywords (or other "experts") for a start. __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland

06-12-2007, 02:43 PM	#9
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Keyword density LOL, Thanks for the compliment. I apologise if it appeared I was being critical of your asking questions, that CERTAINLY is not what I intended Questioning is how we ALL learn. Your methodology of breaking down things into specific questions is 100% spot on. If you asked 'how can I get my site to rank'? I would have ignored the post as it is FAR to broad . __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

06-12-2007, 09:47 PM	#10
jfranktoo Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chichester england Posts: 189	Re: Keyword density No, no, its me with my old habit of not leaving things for an hour before responding. Seriously, Old Welsh, you have a major effect on what people do - you might not know it. For example, I'm trying to set up a new site with a broad search term to compete with travel directories. Its hard and I think I may have to moderate my aim, but I'm not giving up yet. I can easily get to number one for my narrow keywords but I'd like to take on the whole of "Scotland" as a main keyword. Because of your post I've started on something which is feeding my compulsive obsessive disorder. Its lovely. I've spent the whole afteroon analysing the top ten competitive sites for this main search term, looking at the way they structure their keywords , going through each one carefully for backlinks and where they come from, density, word count, alexa ranking (don't go on, its the only traffic tool I've got, I know, I know, perhaps I shouldn't have told you that). It is a totally fascinating study, to me anyway - every site is totally different from every other site on almost every aspect. I suspect that when I Google the search terms to-morrow the order is going to change as well. I've even found a mirror site in the top ten. About the only thing the sites share in common is that they have all been around for a long time and all are very deep in content, many pages, and their pages keep changing. One of them, by a rough and ready calculation gets 3,000 visitors or more a day going through to their clients' web sites. That is some heavyweight result. But Lady Google remains a puzzle. She must be one flirtatious cow. I think she might be on something. Next I'm going to do page ten and see the differences. I might summarise the results, on the forum perhaps, if anyone would be interested. Thanks Old Welsh. It does seem discourteous calling you that. Can't you be Welsh Prop Forward or something? John __________________ Scotland last minute short breaks and special deals, self catering cottages Self catering cottage in Appin by Glencoe Scotland Last edited 06-12-2007 at 09:49 PM. Reason: Cleaner text

06-12-2007, 11:33 PM	#11
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Keyword density PROP FORWARD. I am a back I will have you know. If you doubt this then come down to London Irish' ground at Reading abbey on July 21'st where we will be playing in the Annual Fat Boy 7's charity tournament http://www.fartfairy.org.uk/fb2007.html we are in pool D (Scum V, my rugby forum team) here is the best way to check for competition though. intitle: inanchor: intext: add your keywords. THEN compare the top sites to see where they appear in those lists. THAT is top secret stuff though so I am not going any farther than this LOL. WELL I could tell you, but I would have to k* you, and I don't fel like k**** anyone at this stage __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog Last edited 06-13-2007 at 12:45 AM.

06-13-2007, 03:24 AM	#12
charlesgan Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: hosting-rebate.com Posts: 253	Re: Keyword density i dont count them actually... just make the content natural and keep adding new content every week. it does helps __________________ Hostgator - Hostgator reviews hosted at hostgator.com Bluehost - Bluehost reviews hosted at bluehost.com Hostmonster - Hostmonster reviews hosted at hostmonster.com

06-13-2007, 03:30 AM	#13
Steve Myers Junior Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 544	Re: Keyword density VERY true and good point.. I spoke with a partner of mine from web-optimize.com and we had a discussion over the phone about this earlier today about keyword density and we talk about why people are so soaked about it. He told me "If you just add new content and keep popular links in the content you write about, then Google will favor that site because of how much you update it." If you do this almost EVERYDAY then you will get favored by Google. Just a tip and great input charles!

06-13-2007, 04:18 PM	#14
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Keyword density No new content on my site, still ranks though LOL OK someone slap me with a kipper! __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

06-13-2007, 04:21 PM	#15
Steve Myers Junior Guru Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 544	Re: Keyword density *Slaps WG with a Kipper (Really Hard) lol

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