Website redesign and Page Rank

anielsen · 06-18-2007, 03:49 PM

We noticed that having tidy pages helped us increase PR.

As described here: Make Search Engines Love You

NavyCS · 06-18-2007, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anielsen

We noticed that having tidy pages helped us increase PR.

As described here: Make Search Engines Love You

Wrong on both parts.

Toolbar PR is ONLY a reflection of the number and quality of the links pointing to the page - it has absolutely nothing to do with what is on the page.

Your page can be disfunctional and and filled with errors and still rank well. SERPS is not a coding contest, its an importance of the content relevent to the search contest. As long as you don't have coding errors which hides the content and content structure you will be ok. Thats not to say that each webmaster shouldn't strive for page coding perfection - it's professional to do so.

charlesgan · 06-18-2007, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datpcstore

I noticed after a month of my updated website yesterday my page rank dropped to 2 from 4, my question will website redesign and file structure change effect my PR?

not know what to say.
but the fact is that, pagerank is not updated now.

and its good to use iwebtool pagerank check to verify this over all google datacentre.

anielsen · 06-18-2007, 08:42 PM

Google PR is calculated as described in this article:

Google Page Rank Explained

NavyCS · 06-18-2007, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anielsen

Google PR is calculated as described in this article:

Google Page Rank Explained

Wrong again.
"The higher the PR, the higher a page will be shown in search results." A zero toolbar PR page can out rank a PR-6 PR page, here is an example, search military pay charts in google, the first result (http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/2006...paytables.html) has a grey bar and the second site listed (usmilitary.about.com/od/fy2005paycharts/a/paycharts.htm) has a PR-6.

Toolbar PR is only a reflection of the number of links and the quality of those links coming to a page - it has a result of 0-10. Page PR is a number you will never know and is determined each time a search is conducted, the Page PR is a reflection of hundreds of factors in the Google Algorithm and produces a result between 0 and a very large number.

OldWelshGuy · 06-18-2007, 09:19 PM

HI Anielsen, I assume that is your site you have linked to due to the name etc

Quote:

One of the criteria used by Google when displaying search results is the Page Rank (PR). The higher the PR, the higher a page will be shown in search results

Come on you MUST know that not to be true?

A lot of what you have in there is correct, BUT a lot of it is wrong also. The original page rank has changed significantly since the white paper you are referring to was written. Distribution of PR is now VERY complex, although it is thought to follow simple guidelines. The value of PR being voted is dependent now on many more factors than simple maths calcs and is without doubt affected algorithmically, via the base 5 sliding log scale algo that google now use to alter the values of the various elements taken into consideration. Trust rank is also thought to affect the weight of link benefit of both PR and relevance.

anielsen · 06-26-2007, 05:55 PM

Obviously (as the article says), PR is not the only factor, then Google's page would be on top of every search (the hint here is that matching of the keywords is also important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldWelshGuy

[...]

The value of PR being voted is dependent now on many more factors than simple maths calcs

[...]

So, dear expert, what might that be? Reading tealeaves? Using the force?
Do enlighten us mere mortals.
And please back it up with something better than an article by Page and Brin.

anielsen · 06-26-2007, 06:00 PM

Smartiepants wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by NavyCS

A zero toolbar PR page can out rank a PR-6 PR page, here is an example, search military pay charts in google, the first result (http://www.dfas.mil/militarypay/2006...paytables.html) has a grey bar and the second site listed (usmilitary.about.com/od/fy2005paycharts/a/paycharts.htm) has a PR-6.

Toolbar PR is only a reflection of the number of links and the quality of those links coming to a page - it has a result of 0-10. Page PR is a number you will never know and is determined each time a search is conducted, the Page PR is a reflection of hundreds of factors in the Google Algorithm and produces a result between 0 and a very large number.

The toolbar PR which is available for us to see is only updated every 2-3 months. Google however continously keeps their ranking of pages up to date.

The "hundreds of factors" you mention can you back that up somehow? Do you work for Google? Anything official from Google to quote?

No?

Thought so.

OldWelshGuy · 06-26-2007, 07:33 PM

Anielsen, why are you being so condescending and confrontational?

This is an open forum, which is meant to progress the knowledge of everyone. It appears that because some have been critical of your posts that you are taking it personal and being VERY aggressive in your posts. Please calm down and look at it logically.

Quote:

So, dear expert, what might that be? Reading tealeaves? Using the force?
Do enlighten us mere mortals.
Comments like this are certainly NOT going to make me want to debate anything with you. If you wish to debate then at least be civil about it.
And please back it up with something better than an article by Page and Brin

Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous this statement makes you appear?

You are asking for black and white categorical proof of the PageRank algorithm (not to be confused with the page RANKING algorithm) yet you are saying that you will NOT ACCEPT anything that is written by the people who created it?

Who WILL you accept it from then?

It APPEARS (you see the problem here is that I am attempting to debate with you when I can foresee your not taking anything I say in the manner in which it is being posted, deciding to behave in the condescending immature way you have so far.

It looks to me as if you are confusing Page rank with page ranking, and Importance (page rank) with relevance (textual semantic meaning). I say this because you say

Quote:

Obviously (as the article says), PR is not the only factor, then Google's page would be on top of every search (the hint here is that matching of the keywords is also important.

PageRank Explained
- from http://www.google.com/technology/ (although by your own admission you refuse to accept anything by Page & Brinn, and it will be either Page, Brinn, or Eric Schmidt who wrote this, but what the hell do THEY know eh

Quote:

PageRank relies on the uniquely democratic nature of the web by using its vast link structure as an indicator of an individual page's value. In essence, Google interprets a link from page A to page B as a vote, by page A, for page B. But, Google looks at considerably more than the sheer volume of votes, or links a page receives; for example, it also analyzes the page that casts the vote. Votes cast by pages that are themselves "important" weigh more heavily and help to make other pages "important." Using these and other factors, Google provides its views on pages' relative importance.

Of course, important pages mean nothing to you if they don't match your query. So, Google combines PageRank with sophisticated text-matching techniques to find pages that are both important and relevant to your search. Google goes far beyond the number of times a term appears on a page and examines dozens of aspects of the page's content (and the content of the pages linking to it) to determine if it's a good match for your query.

Please accept graciously what I am posting here, because I am not trying to put you down, I am SIMPLY pointing out the inaccuracies in the article and your posts to date.

I honestly do not know what to say to you though because to be blunt, you are being VERY offensive in your replies, that said, provided your reply is sensible, I will be prepared to debate with you. I will also be pleased to admit I am wrong, something I have done on every occasion in the past when it has been so.

Admitting we are wrong is the first step to becoming a better (whatever it is we are trying to become) The first step of a criminal's road to recovery is admission of guilt.

NavyCS · 06-27-2007, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anielsen

Smartiepants wrote:
The "hundreds of factors" you mention can you back that up somehow? Do you work for Google? Anything official from Google to quote?

No?

Thought so.

Actually, yes. I read, test and research SEO. I assume you do the same and just missed this post and the linked to NY Times news article named "Inside the Black Box" By SAUL HANSELL - GREAT READ btw!

http://www.mattcutts.com/blog/five-t...oogles-search/

anielsen · 06-27-2007, 06:49 AM

Thank you all for contributing comments on the articles.

As you will see from Google Page Rank Explained there is the following disclaimer in the beginning:

"This article is based mainly on an original article by Google founders Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page but also on hearsay, speculation and rumours. Google is not interested in allowing the public to know exactly how the PR is calculated since it is then easier to trick or cheat the search engine and since this would undermine its credibility. It does however appear that a variation over the basic formula is still used."

The article does not state that it is the whole truth, nothing but the truth etc, but it does allow the reader to understand the idea behind PR. This arms the reader with the information that inbound links of a high quality is what it takes to get a high PR. Whether the logarithmic base is 2, 5, e or 10 is really of little importance.

Only the guys at Google know how it actually works, and I wouldn't claim to be able to - or even try to - explain everything in detail.

The other article Make Search Engines Love You, has a similar disclaimer:

"It is difficult to say exactly how big the penalty is in terms of rank and it varies from search engine to search engine. A few insignificant probably result in no penalty at all. But since it is easy to check and fix, keeping your house in order should be well worth it and boost your rank."

From private messages and the messages above, I can see that I hurt someones feeling and pride. Please accept my sincere apologies for that - it was not my intention to do so.

We have all posted to this forum for the purpose of increasing rank.
Here's an article on why that is a problem:
The Problem With Google

OldWelshGuy · 06-27-2007, 07:20 AM

You are of course 100% correct when you say that no one outside of google (possibly with the exception of Vanessa Fox

) knows with 100% certainty how the Algorithm works.

marketing 3fn · 06-28-2007, 02:04 PM

if you keep the indexed contents of your website, and continue putting it, you should start doing even better.

mefisto · 07-07-2007, 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by datpcstore

I noticed after a month of my updated website yesterday my page rank dropped to 2 from 4, my question will website redesign and file structure change effect my PR?

If I understand your question, you are asking whether design change can be the cause for the drop in pagerank. the answer is no.

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http://brochure-design-mefisto.50webs.com/

sheena · 07-07-2007, 06:46 AM

There is a lot of changes if you redesign your website. It will affect the page rank and even the backlinks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wombleme

It certainly can- making you're site appear less "spammy" and making all pages accessible within two clicks of your home page can be useful.
By making you're site appear less spammy I mean don't over do keyword density, don't link to too many external domains (and perhaps use nofollow- though personally I dont like this)....

06-18-2007, 03:49 PM	#16
anielsen Newcomer Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Website redesign and Page Rank We noticed that having tidy pages helped us increase PR. As described here: Make Search Engines Love You __________________ The Online Business Builder. Learn how to build a successful online business and make money online.

06-18-2007, 08:42 PM	#19
anielsen Newcomer Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Website redesign and Page Rank Google PR is calculated as described in this article: Google Page Rank Explained

06-27-2007, 06:49 AM	#26
anielsen Newcomer Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 25	Re: Website redesign and Page Rank Thank you all for contributing comments on the articles. As you will see from Google Page Rank Explained there is the following disclaimer in the beginning: "This article is based mainly on an original article by Google founders Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page but also on hearsay, speculation and rumours. Google is not interested in allowing the public to know exactly how the PR is calculated since it is then easier to trick or cheat the search engine and since this would undermine its credibility. It does however appear that a variation over the basic formula is still used." The article does not state that it is the whole truth, nothing but the truth etc, but it does allow the reader to understand the idea behind PR. This arms the reader with the information that inbound links of a high quality is what it takes to get a high PR. Whether the logarithmic base is 2, 5, e or 10 is really of little importance. Only the guys at Google know how it actually works, and I wouldn't claim to be able to - or even try to - explain everything in detail. The other article Make Search Engines Love You, has a similar disclaimer: "It is difficult to say exactly how big the penalty is in terms of rank and it varies from search engine to search engine. A few insignificant probably result in no penalty at all. But since it is easy to check and fix, keeping your house in order should be well worth it and boost your rank." From private messages and the messages above, I can see that I hurt someones feeling and pride. Please accept my sincere apologies for that - it was not my intention to do so. We have all posted to this forum for the purpose of increasing rank. Here's an article on why that is a problem: The Problem With Google __________________ The Online Business Builder. Learn how to build a successful online business and make money online.

06-27-2007, 07:20 AM	#27
OldWelshGuy iWEBTOOL SEO Advisor Contributor Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 675	Re: Website redesign and Page Rank You are of course 100% correct when you say that no one outside of google (possibly with the exception of Vanessa Fox ) knows with 100% certainty how the Algorithm works. __________________ Umbrella Consultancy Internet Marketing Company - Rugby Forum - Google Expert Blog

06-28-2007, 02:04 PM	#28
marketing 3fn Smurf Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 29	Re: Website redesign and Page Rank if you keep the indexed contents of your website, and continue putting it, you should start doing even better.

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